Small Shift of the Lip, Big Shift in the Sound
A few weeks ago I saw a brief instructional video by monster sax player and educator, George Garzone. In the video, he takes on a plethora of topics, but one thing he said really stood out to me.
Regardless of your horn, mouthpiece, or reed, the truth is, to the outside listener, you sound pretty much like...you. It's not that gear doesn't affect your sound at all, but your biggest and richest sound will only come by developing the skills within both your body and mind to sound great on any setup.
So if you're willing to move beyond having your day ruined by a lousy reed, then sax legend David Liebman's course, Ultimate Guide to Saxophone Sound Production is where you're going to want to go next.
Broken down into bite-sized lessons, this streaming video program covers just about every single aspect of saxophone sound production. It represents his entire life's work teaching the techniques and concepts that were handed down to masters such as Michael Brecker, Bob Berg, and Harvey Pittel (among many others), and then refined over the course of decades teaching countless lessons and masterclasses worldwide. Click below to see for yourself why so many professional saxophonists consider David's thorough, methodical, and practical approach the "real deal" for players at any level.
SAXOPHONETONE.COM
The Ultimate Guide to Saxophone Sound Production
George says that the first thing he does when a new student comes to him is have the student “release” the lower lip. since most of them come in playing with the lower lip tucked in over the bottom teeth. George describes this release of the lower lip as “being a religious experience” for the students, as they find that within the span of thirty seconds, their tone becomes radically bigger. And of course it makes sense. Without those rock-hard teeth clamping down on the mouthpiece, the reed is going to vibrate a whole lot more, and more reed vibration equals more sound.
As one of those players who’s always played with the bottom lip in, when I took George’s advice and moved the lip out, I too had the religious experience of hearing my tone sound as big as a truck, and I haven’t been able to bring myself back since.
My first attempts at this type of embouchure involved sticking that bottom lip out as though I was frowning. However, the frowning embouchure soon became a true frown as I noticed a couple of things when playing this way:
- My chops got completely worn out within a matter of minutes.
- I had air rushing out of the top of my mouthpiece due to the wearing out of the chops.
- When playing anywhere towards the top of the saxophone’s register, I found myself squeaking like a middle school clarinetist in their first week of band practice.
So clearly this was not going to be a simple matter of moving the lip and voila! – all my problems are solved. No, this was and still is going to be a bit of a project.
Through a bit of research, I’ve learned a few key considerations:
- The lower lip should not necessarily be sticking all the way out as much as it should simply serve as a support for the mouthpiece. Ideally, the lower lip is pressing against straight up against the lower teeth. Saxman and teacher Pete Thomas describes: “...if you think of the lip in profile, it is more or less pointing straight up, like the letter I. The pressure on the reed causes it to become a T.”
- Sticking that lower lip all the way out can feel unnatural and a bit contorted. At the end of the day, we have to find a way to play where our embouchure feels natural. Jerry Bergonzi refers to this approach as the “no embouchure embouchure,” saying that this embouchure is what we were born with and is the most natural way to play.
- As I mentioned to earlier, because we no longer have the stiffness of the lower teeth supporting the mouthpiece, we will be flexing unfamiliar muscles to keep the sound going, so don’t be shocked if you find you chops getting tired more than usual.
- Since the lower lip is going to remain a bit looser, we can’t be counting on it as much for keeping us in tune. Instead, we will need to experiment with using the tongue, throat, and shape of the oral cavity to control our intonation, so this will be a process in and of itself. Practicing on the mouthpiece without that sax should be of great help in wrangling that pitch without the benefit of the lower lip.
Flex those Muscles
Another Pete Thomas tidbit that I’d like to share is the following exercise which can be done without the saxophone:
“Open your mouth, press down on your lower lip (not curled over the teeth but keep it fairly firm) with a finger and say “yah yah yah”. You will find it’s possible to move your finger by doing that.”
This is a great way to isolate those lower lip muscles and get yourself in shape for this new tone-tripling lip position.
Embouchures in Action
(Click photos for a larger view.)
A Time and Place for Everything
Although playing with the bottom lip out can increase the size of your sound, in certain instances, it may not be the best choice. For example if you are playing classical music, then the sound that’s required for that style is generally achieved by playing with the bottom lip in.
And since there are no rules in music, you may find that you like the sound you get with the lip in better than with the lip out. In fact, the master himself, John Coltrane played with the lower lip and the upper lip both tucked in. At the end of the day, it’s all just a matter of personal taste.
February 7, 2011 @ 7:17 pm
Doron,
I’m with the don’t-curl-lip-over-teeth school, too.
Have you seen my vids about natural embouchure?
see ya!
~Rick
February 7, 2011 @ 9:36 pm
Hey there Rick,
I’d love to see your videos about natural embouchure, can you please leave a comment with the URL(s)?
Thanks!
Doron
July 24, 2015 @ 7:40 am
When George Garzone taught me that at Berklee, the change in my sound was instantaneous. Of course I had to learn to focus the much bigger sound I developed.
February 8, 2011 @ 6:45 am
Sure. It’s divided into three videos:
Natural Embouchure Part 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P0IijB7gxPg
Natural Embouchure Part 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ib9rhuk9HXs
How Much Mouthpiece: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zU5gIhwc5Qo
Here’s what Phil Barone had to say about them:
“This is a really great post and video. I’ve been saying this for years and is what Joe Allard taught me. I’ve also been telling all of my customers the same thing and you’d be really surprised how many players don’t take in enough mouthpiece. But after all, who teaches how much mouthpiece to take in your mouth? It’s really easy to just not do it. The problem is getting past that initial period when it doesn’t sound very good; it takes a couple of days at the most before it starts to sound normal; before that it sounds crass. I know some people don’t agree with this. Also, check out photos of Trane and sonny Rollins playing, they eat the mouthpiece. ”
This may not work for everybody. But, as a rule, it seems sensible that instrumentalists should always try the most physically natural and comfortable approach to playing, as our individual bodies dictate.
sincerely,
~ Rick
February 8, 2011 @ 9:16 pm
Love these videos, will feature them on the site so that everyone gets a chance to see them. Thanks Rick!
February 5, 2018 @ 4:27 am
Thanks
Saxophone Embouchure Made Simple | Best. Saxophone. Website. Ever.
February 9, 2011 @ 7:07 am
[…] For those of you who’ve been keeping up with the blog (and shame on you if you’re not one of those people), I’ve recently been putting out articles that have to do with the art of saxophone tone creation, including articles on overtones, practicing on the mouthpiece, and proper positioning of the lower lip. […]
February 9, 2011 @ 7:30 am
Crazy I just went through this exact same experience from that same Garzone video! Nuts.
February 9, 2011 @ 7:47 am
Yeah, really eye (and sound) opening stuff!
February 24, 2011 @ 7:44 pm
Hey my name is chad, I want to become a better Alto player and I looked over this article, but I just can’t seem to be able to do it. My teeth keep moving toward my lip I feel like I just cant do it. =/
February 24, 2011 @ 9:30 pm
Hello Chad,
You might want to try playing with your lip all the way out, and then slowly tucking it in more and more until you find a natural place for it. It will take some time to get used to this, but if you’ve put in a few weeks or so and still no result, there’s nothing that says you can’t go back to the lip in method. The point is for it to feel as natural as possible while getting the best possible sound.
I hope that helps! All the best,
Doron
February 25, 2011 @ 3:42 am
Ok I will keep trying ive got seven years of the teeth way under my belt sooo this might take a while! by the way I love the site!
February 25, 2011 @ 7:50 am
Cool that you’re willing to be open-minded and persevere. So glad you like the site as well- it’s very inspiring to hear reactions like that!
March 3, 2011 @ 3:51 pm
Will I have been working on this and it really made my tone like O.O! I enjoy it so much!!!
March 3, 2011 @ 11:29 pm
Chad, so glad it’s been helping you, as this is what the site is all about! Keep on swingin’ my friend (or classical-ing if that’s your thing, either way, keep doin’ it!)
March 8, 2011 @ 5:52 am
Natural emboucher, who would have thought ;) I spent many hours watching videos and photos of the great players, looking to copy their expression, where they puff, where they place their lips, the corners the apparent strains on the chin and cheek and all over, and I had to conclude that the emboucher style and the excellence of the sound were largely independent, which suggests yes, to each his own so long as you are true to yourself. There are very few general rules beyond, “If you like the sound and like doing it, keep doing it, otherwise try something else.”
It’s still good to know what’s possible, though, in case you need to try something dramatically ‘else’. A clarinetist recently told me he’d seen a sax player with bad teeth play with the mouthpiece inverted. I’d need to see that for myself to believe it, but there you have it, it may be another possible ‘else’.
I had only one proper ‘lesson’, with the legendary Canadian avant-guard player Morey Coles; backstage at a gig a the Music Gallery in the 70’s, I asked him if he could teach me he said sure, so I asked when we could start and he said why not right now. “Do you have a saxophone?” Yes, I said, it was at home. With a big friendly smile he answered, “Then go home, and PLAY it!”
It was excellent advice.
March 8, 2011 @ 7:39 am
Hello MtG,
Sounds like Morey was quite a character! As for the embouchure, I agree, there is definitely a tendency to overcomplicate things. Like you said, there really are no rules, as long as it feels and sounds good, then it is good.
Of course, on the way to finding that natural embouchure, it’s good to experiment with a few different approaches, but the goal is for ease of playing.
Thanks for stopping by,
Doron
March 8, 2011 @ 7:58 am
Indeed he was, and Morey was one heck of a player too, in an Anthony Braxton sort of tradition, and I often wonder what ever happened to him.
but yes, I think it is important to seek and listen to what anyone has to say about what works for them because quite often what someone says my not be what you need, but it might inspire you toward what you need. The clarinetist blogger David Thomas wrote recently, on the subject of that “Good classical tone” that if you find the balance of the embouchure that is the easiest, most effortless way to get a solid sound, you will find that it is good sound — and this from a player with a major orchestra! — it reminded me of Bucky Fuller saying that it was AFTER he had built the first geodesic dome that he noticed that it was beautiful.
I think those of us living in these modern times are at a disadvantage. We are so accustomed to ‘difficult’ technology, technology that was made to make money for its creators and only peripherally to be mindful of its users. We expect computers to be finicky and crash, cars to have quirks, even multiple screwdrivers that have to be tapped a special way to get the thing to retract properly. Our musical instruments, on the other hand, come down to us from another world, a very different world where the performance of the device was of primary importance, as William Burroughs said, “Technology should serve the body, not enslave the mind” — our instruments have centuries of accumulated improvements that have been entirely directed at matching the machine to the player, so it stands to reason that while a 1915 Conn might be a nightmare to play (they are!) the modern machines should be and largely are really very well matched to our physiology!
March 8, 2011 @ 9:00 pm
Wow, some pretty in-depth views on the bigger picture as it relates to music. I too often wonder if all of this time in front of the computer is really saving us time. I know that it is making the world better in certain ways, giving people all over the world the power to create all sorts of great things.
The saxophone is a relatively young instrument though, but I think that it will eventually become even better matched to our physiology (damn palm keys!).
- Quick Tip: How to Blow into the Saxophone
March 9, 2011 @ 3:53 pm
[…] often we overcomplicate things. We should never twist, contort, and strain ourselves while playing. We (hopefully) don’t struggle and strain when we speak, so why all the painful effort while […]
A Look at the World’s Most Popular Saxophone Embouchure | Best. Saxophone. Website. Ever.
August 8, 2011 @ 6:01 am
[…] Espoused by greats such as George Garzone and Jerry Bergonzi is the “no embouchure embouchure” where the lip is positioned naturally, not necessarily in or out. But that’s a topic for a whole other article which you can read here. […]
August 30, 2011 @ 4:02 am
this wonderful piece opened my eyes to the world of blowing the saxophone since a half a century!
My god, i cant’t believe that i could play so easy using the suggestions especially after havin’ looked at the photos.
Thank you very much and please continue in the teaching!
Toni
August 30, 2011 @ 4:22 pm
Hello Toni,
Wow, I can’t say how happy I am that this article helped you as much as it did! I think that looking closely at the embouchure is important for all of us to do so that we’re not just blindly blowing out of the horn, but consciously creating the sound that’s in our ears.
Thanks for the kind words, all the best,
Doron
Improving Your Sax Playing the Fast Way | Best. Saxophone. Website. Ever.
September 8, 2011 @ 8:06 am
[…] Long Tones As my good friend and saxophone bad-arse Tim Wilcox showed me, I practice fading my notes in as though they came out of nowhere, going all the way up into the fortissimo range, and then coming back down to fading out. However, I make it a point to not remove the horn from my mouth between notes. This robs my chops of the chance to recuperate, thereby strengthening them.I also make it a point to be conscious of biting down too hard on the mouthpiece with the upper teeth. I’ve noticed great results from a combination of the Joe Allard school of tone production as well as the “No Embouchure Embouchure” as espoused by Jerry Bergonzi. My bottom lip is not rolled in all the way, nor is rolled out like I’m puckerin’ up for a big fat kiss. This natural way of playing has made my tone noticeably bigger. More on the topic of lip position in this article here. […]
October 9, 2011 @ 1:41 pm
I recently started working on this same thing, and something that is helping a lot was going and buying the same mouthpiece I’m used to with my former lip-over-bottom teeth embouchure, but three tip openings shallower, and using softer reeds. I think one reason people don’t try it out more is that the muscle use is different enough that if you try it out on your regular rig ( assuming you’ve been playing a long time and built up your previous embouchure ), you just sound terrible and can’t control it at all. But now I’m amazed that when I get it right, on a 6 instead of a 7*, I can get fatigued on such a soft rig and get a sound as big as on my 7*. Thanks for the post!
October 9, 2011 @ 2:21 pm
Hello Iain,
Wow, that’s a really cool idea! I to have noticed some sound control issues when it comes to playing with a more natural embouchure, so I can see how your approach makes a lot of sense.
Thanks for sharing!
Doron
November 10, 2011 @ 4:47 pm
Hello Doran,
I am playing saxophone for a quit few years and I always had a problem with my embouchure. My lower teeth cut in my lower lip. I play the lip out. I tried many ways to solve this problem. I even went to a dentist that she round a little the sharp corners of my lower teeth and it reduced the problem at 20%, but still it hurts.
So, recently as I was thinking about it, I came to a conclusion that maybe my saxophone is tuned to low and subconsciously I try to compensate it with applying more pressure on the read which is causing the lip being hurt by teeth?…
So, I pushed the mouthpiece in, and it looks like my lower lip is a lot more relaxed now then before.
But now I have another problem – many notes sound out of tune and I need to blow the long notes literally to relearn to play and stay in tune.
So, since it’s my own discovery, and I just started doing it a few days ago, could you please advice me if what I am doing is right and if the fact of a sax being tuned too low could really be the cause of a problem? Or am I going in a wrong direction?
November 10, 2011 @ 5:06 pm
Hello Denis,
As far as embouchure goes, my personal opinion is that it’s not so much that the lower lip is tucked in over the teeth, or sticking outwards, but just that the lower lip is positioned *naturally.*
In other words, your lower lip should be exactly as it would be if you were talking, but you just happen to have a mouthpiece sitting on it. The challenge is to support the mouthpiece with the muscles in the lower lip instead of simply using the bottom teeth. The lower lip is obviously going to be softer than the lower teeth, and that softer surface will allow the reed to vibrate more freely. Of course, it will take time to get used to playing this way and you may find your embouchure getting tired after just a short amount of time, but you can build up those muscles and not have to worry about the fatigue so much.
With regards to the intonation, my opinion on that is that proper intonation really comes from your ears. I have to first be able to *hear* the notes in tune before I can play them in tune. Once I’m hearing the notes in tune, then my body naturally makes the adjustments.
Many people use the bottom lip to tune, and there are many excellent teachers who recognize that way of tuning. In fact, I do this quite a bit. But you can also adjust your pitch with the muscles inside your mouth and your throat. I’d take a look at this article about practicing with the mouthpiece alone, and that should help give you another level of control.
https://www.bestsaxophonewebsiteever.com//improve-your-tone-without-picking-up-the-horn/
Also, if you want to practice playing in tune, I set up a little exercise here that may help (mp3 and printable exercises at the bottom of the article):
https://www.bestsaxophonewebsiteever.com//do-you-play-out-of-tune/
I hope all of that helps!
Doron
November 10, 2011 @ 5:18 pm
Thank you Doron for your quick answer!
Tell me please once gain, what do you think: the saxophone being tuned too low could be a problem of a too much pressure on a lower lip?
November 10, 2011 @ 5:38 pm
Actually, squeezing up with the lower lip would make you play *sharper.* If you horn is generally too low/flat, then I would simple push the mouthpiece in on the cork some more. There are always going to be some notes that are consistently more difficult to tune (like the middle C# and middle E), but that’s normal. As long as your horn has been looked at by a good repairman at least somewhat recently, you should be able to play in tune by developing your ear more and practicing playing along with recordings.
You may want to consider some of Greg Fishman’s books, since they come along with CDs of Greg playing, so you can play with the recording and practice your pitch that way:
http://www.gregfishmanjazzstudios.com
November 10, 2011 @ 6:35 pm
Thank you Doron!
November 11, 2011 @ 5:49 am
Hi Doran,
just fell on this article:
[Sorry(!), but this web page has disappeared since the original publication of this article]
I agree with him that when you push the mouthpiece further in, the embouchure becomes more relaxed and it’s easier to blow, you get less tensed and tire less. Well, I still need some more time to really make sure if it’s a solution for me, since I discovered it only a few days ago and presently am at the stage of experimenting and actually breaking the habits I was practicing for many years….
November 11, 2011 @ 7:55 am
I was a saxophone student of Steve Duke’s at NIU in the mid-90’s. He is a master teacher, and master saxophonist. He was indeed a student of Jim Riggs at North Texas, and knows the score.
November 11, 2011 @ 10:12 am
Well, if Steve has Rick’s stamp of approval, then you’d probably do well to take Steve’s suggestions to heart! As long as you can find a way to play naturally and comfortably, then you’re on track to make major advances in your playing. Keep going for it!
September 6, 2012 @ 12:36 pm
I believe that there are really two schools here. The “lip out” school, embodied by the players above, tends to give a full, powerful and slightly brighter sound.
It’s also possible to play “lip in” which tends to give a warmer sound. The prime exponent is likely Stan Getz. Although a google on Getz embouchure gives sources which suggest he changed a fair amount over the years, check out this video :
http://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=10150103050627450
Now that’s Stan in full voice, and his classic sound that only he had – and you can see a clear difference from the examples above. The lip is pulled in much more.
So, there is more than one way to do it, and the way you choose will have a big influence on the sound.
Great post by the way – very interesting to look at this in depth. Thanks!
September 6, 2012 @ 9:58 pm
Totally agree, there’s no right or wrong. For me, the lip out thing made a big difference, but it really depends on what feels natural and sounds good. Thanks for sharing the Getz video as well as the kind words!
September 9, 2012 @ 2:36 pm
2 weeks ago I began to seriously tackle my embouchure and made many adjustments including putting a lot more mouthpiece in, the “no embouchure embouchure”, applying pressure from the side rather than top and bottom and using throat and tongue to control notes.
I am only doing long tones, overtones and scales at 60bpm at this stage. After 40 mins, embouchure is very tired and I am getting some serious squeeking above middle E.
While I am feeling some serious muscle workout happening in my embouchure and throat, the improvements in sound has not really happened, especially anything about a middle F. For those who have been down this path, how long did it take for you to really improve your sound using this method? Does my progress sound normal?
By the way, one of the best explanations about “all things sound” is from Tom Walsh (who’s from the same school of though as Garzone and Bergonzi) video here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cw7WWLvx3lM
He also addresses in detail a lot of these points plus a whole lot more in the 55 min video.
September 9, 2012 @ 3:47 pm
It took me about two or three months before I felt like I could go play a show with the new embouchure. It was TOTALLY WORTH IT! I actually ponied up the money for a much narrower mouthpiece to do the transition on, which helped a lot. You should sound pretty crap and get tired dead fast if you’re doing it right, but the strength comes pretty quick. Like it was ridiculous how little I could play or control the tone at first, so don’t get discouraged. Lots of longtones, playing just the neck, slow easy exercises. I can now play longer, less lip pain, and IMHO, way better sound.
September 9, 2012 @ 4:05 pm
Great insights Iain! Andrew, as far as improving your tone, do you even have a clear idea of what you’d like your tone to sound like? That’s what’s really helped me. I talk about this a bit in a video I put up on YouTube a while back: https://www.bestsaxophonewebsiteever.com//shopping-for-your-tone-how-to-sound-like-the-saxophone-player-you-want-to-be/
As far as the squeaking goes, I’d try using a different strength reed, probably a bit harder, but maybe even a bit softer, might take a little trial and error. I would also say to make sure that you’re head is pointed straight ahead and centered (not pointed up or down, but in the middle), and make sure that you’re using enough pressure to hold the mouthpiece in place, but not too much pressure that you constrict the sound.
Thanks for sharing the video link, looks really awesome, and I hope that all of this helps!
September 10, 2012 @ 1:59 am
Thanks Doron, all very sensible advice!
I have found that the squeaking is caused by my weak embouchure. I can usually play for about 15 minutes before it starts to squeak on specific transitions which require more control (like middle D to C or C#) and the higher register. I can compensate this by then shifting to a lighter reed (a #2 in my case).
One important thing is that when I am using too much force / pressure to get the notes out, I am not concerntrated at all about
my throat position, tongue or applying pressure from the sides. So I can definately recommend dropping down a reed strength or
two when beginning to use this embouchure.
Regarding sound concept, I will focus on that once my embouchure is stable and strong I am no longer thinking about: throat position,
applying pressure from the sides of the mouth, “corners out”, breathing “warm air” from the diaphram, tongue position, more mouthpiece in the mouth, etc ;)
September 10, 2012 @ 1:24 am
Thanks for your report from the field Iain, good to know someone who’s been there before and come out singing.
“You should sound pretty crap and get tired dead fast if you’re doing it right” – I am really glad to hear you say this it seems to have not been mentioned yet. I am at the stage where it will have a rich sound but for a short period of time, then the muscle fatigue kicks in. Thanks for your advice, I will keep persisting with this methodology for the next 3 weeks without straying, and I’ll look back at the end of the month to analyse how it’s progressing.
Not only is the feeling of the embouchure feel counter-intuitive (lip out, throat control, tongue position, voicing), but the sound is worse in the beginning. This is a real “leap of faith embouchure”.
When you say a narrower mouthpiece, are you referring to the tip opening or to the width of the piece? I can imagine how both would be useful for training this embouchure.
I am also iscolating the embouchure muscle by doing mouthpiece exercises. They are really amazing as the only thing you are concerntrating on are the embouchure muscles, air flow control and throat. An excellent exercise to really get focused on the area of improvement. A great tool to make mouthpiece exercises manageable is the Silencer: http://www.jazzlab.com/en/silencer/
Well worth the money as it means I am practise any time of the evening and not disturb neighbours.
April 11, 2013 @ 9:05 am
I just wanted to report back on how my embouchure has progressed since I began with this technique over 6 months ago.
How long did it take? Well, about 4-5 months to start to build up genuine strength in my embouchure. Before I believe I was using a much less of the embouchure muscles as I was biting down, putting strain on my jaw and lower lip.
Was it worth it? Definately. I feel that I have a lot more control over the sound, which has intern improved the intonation and strength of the sound.
I ended up switching back to my original mouthpiece (Yamaha 4C) and using reeds of strength 2 (!!) for the first 2-3 months. Once I had a solid base strength in the embouchure I moved to 2.5 and then to 3 quite quickly. I am now playing on a 5* mouthpiece with a 3.5 strength reed, hoping to moving back up to my old 7* mouthpiece in the coming months. So yes, this process took me time but it is definitely worth it because the strength and control you develop in your embouchure is much greater than other techniques I have tried.
April 12, 2013 @ 8:55 pm
Man, that’s awesome! For what it’s worth, I personally wouldn’t worry about moving up to a more open mouthpiece just for the sake of playing a bigger tip opening. If what you’re playing on feels and sounds right, then there’s no need to rush towards more resistant mouthpieces and reeds.
My 2c, thanks for sharing!
April 13, 2013 @ 12:28 am
Hi Doron,
I think you’re right, there is no point just going for a bigger opening unless it plays more like how you want to sound.
I am finding that I really enjoy the feeling and sound of having a little more resistance in the setup, so the 5* and 3,5 reeds are perfect for me right now.
However I am now curious to find out how the Otto Link 7* sounds with the new embouchure, as when I used to bite it sounded amazing. I guess I am assuming it will sound even better with the new embouchure? I will only be able to find out when I get to the point that I can play it again :)
April 11, 2013 @ 8:46 am
Well, I’m very late to the discussion thread, but I’ve just picked up my tenor (after a serious overhaul by a good repairman) after about eight years away from the horn, and as you can imagine my embouchure is quite weak.
I used to get a lot of comments about how to fix my embouchure, how I was doing it wrong, mainly from my (classical) sax teacher in university, but I was happy with my jazz sound and that was my focus. However, I figured I might as well explore a little since I’m rebuilding from (almost) zero now anyway, and a bit of Googling brought me here.
After a little more research, I headed up to the terrace and played a bit, trying out each embouchure. I can’t even do double-lip — my top lip won’t doesn’t stay in place and the mouthpiece slips when I manage to get it under my teeth anyway.
Single lip was what I was originally taught, and what I *thought* I was normally doing… but just now, playing through some tunes and scales and patterns, I found I was doing the third way naturally, as if I’d always been doing it… and I think I often was doing it, unconsciously. Which explains why my embouchure has gotten so fatigued with my restarting playing after being away from it for so long. But I like the bigger, richer tone, and I will be keeping on with it, focusing more on long tones for now so that I develop those muscles back to where they were when I put the horn down back in 2005.
Thanks for the summary of the info, it was handy for me, and I’ll be poking around here some more as I look into other bad habits I want to skip relearning, as well as new things I want to learn or work on once I get closer and closer to where I left off…
April 12, 2013 @ 8:53 pm
Glad you enjoyed the article, it sounds like you’re definitely on the path to taking your tone to the next level!
April 12, 2013 @ 11:32 pm
Here’s hoping! I’ve been in touch with Phil Barone, as I’ve been thinking of trying out a better mouthpiece, and he gave me some exercises to try, which have opened up my eyes about taking more mouthpiece (among other things)…
But I have a lot of work ahead of me before I start sounding anything like what I want (or what I hear in my head). :)
April 16, 2013 @ 10:53 am
For those who do not have time (and a room) to pratice for hours, lip training helps a lot here! I found one nice method in Larry Teals “The Art of Saxophone Playing”. Shape the lips like whistling then change to your broadest smile, do that fivty times, three times a day. I do it much much more (maybe a hundred changes or more and that four or five times a day). Now I can release my lower lip/jaw and – unbelievable – I’m able to open up the sound, particularly in the upper register. After more than twenty years of honking like a klaxon (o.k. some say my tone is not that bad, it’s what I hear) I’m finally getting closer to sounding like a tenor should sound. I suppressed the sound. Intonation is controlled by tongue and throat – mouthpiece exercises help a lot here (I got that silencer for christmas and it’s working – for me and my environment). I read that according to Allard the reed should feel like just laying on your lower lip – no pressure at all.
Mor is here:
http://davidvaldez.blogspot.de/2010/03/joe-allard-saxophone-method-unveiled_21.html
So work on your chops folks!(and excuse my bad english ;)
April 28, 2013 @ 4:12 am
Just read this article, just started to learn the sax and have been curling the lip, tried not curling the lip, what a difference. Need to rethink my practice. Better changing now.
April 28, 2013 @ 10:42 am
That’s awesome, Jim! I think you’re off to a good start by avoiding tucking the bottom lip in. Unless you’re looking to be a primarily classical saxophonist, using the fleshiest part of your lower lip to make contact with the reed is going to be the pathway to a big sound.
May 16, 2013 @ 8:29 pm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GC3Bc-xCT_o
August 4, 2013 @ 9:55 am
Just wanted to chime in for those wondering whether to take the plunge and retrain the emboucer. I did it about a year ago. I purchased a way smaller tip opening to work out on for the process ( 6 down from 7* on a metal link ). It feels freaking impossible at first and you sound like crap and can’t play for long at all. It took a few months before playing was real. Now a year later, I can play longer, way bigger tone, and ZERO lower lip pain. I used to get really bad pain from a sharp crooked lower tooth protrusion, and now it doesn’t bother me ever. In other words, TOTALLY WORTH IT. Just be patient, expect it to take a while and I highly recommend dropping down a few levels on your reed and mouthpiece combo while you work on it. Rick’s videos were very helpful.
my two cents.
August 4, 2013 @ 10:11 am
That’s awesome to hear, and very much in line with my experience as well. I had to drop a reed strength, since I was exerting much less pressure from my lip. Thanks for sharing!
January 29, 2014 @ 12:48 am
I’m having trouble finding comments on LOCATION of the lips along the reed. Specifically, I would like to know if the experts move their lips back and forth on the mouthpiece as their desired pitch varies, or do they find a sweet-spot on the reed and stick to it no matter what they are playing?
(I like your website, and I’ll be lurking about quite a bit from now on….)
Thanks,
Pete
January 29, 2014 @ 11:22 am
According to Joe Allard, you can indeed move the mouthpiece in and out of your mouth a bit – see this article: https://www.bestsaxophonewebsiteever.com//a-set-of-mouthpiece-exercises-to-boost-your-tone-big-time/. I hope that helps!
September 16, 2015 @ 8:39 am
Hi Doron, I know this post dates back to several years but i’m currently struggling with this issue (I play the tenor). I recently started to roll out my lip because of the fatigue caused by the lip rolled in. I Instantly felt more vibration of the reed resulting in a bigger sound plus a lot less effort on the lower lip .
The only problem is that i kown have a very hard time supporting the reed, especially in the upper register. It’s okay up to C# but as soon as i reached high D it starts hissing and squeaking really bad.
Do you have any advice on how to keep the lip rolled out (for the sound and the fatigue) and having control of the reed to have a good high register?
Thank you very much!
December 16, 2015 @ 10:49 pm
In 1968 I started taking sax lessons from Bill Shiner in the Bronx. He had already closed his “sax school” in the Bronx due to local thugs/threats ??? However he gave me lessons at the request of Fred Lipsius, who was just beginning to reach fame with his group “Blood Sweat & Tears.” Fred was my dads best friend; grew up together in the Parkchester section of The Bronx.
Bill was a very stern teacher and I may have been just a bit too young to fully garner and understand the opportunity to be taught by him at the time. I was in 5th grade. Bill emphasized embouchure and would poke your repeatedly in your chin to remind you to tighten your chin muscles. Bills embouchure as taught to me was to put your teeth on the top of the mouthpiece… let your jaw hang… and then purse your bottom lip to the reed… no “tucked lip”… but a firm lower lip on the reed.
As mentioned I wasn’t ready for these lessons yet, wasn’t mature enough, but I did learn alot despite myself. I went on to play in several funk/performance bands in the ’70’s and I still play to date.
I have never been able to get a “sweet” sound on my horns, probably because I’ve never had a “pro” horn. Fred Lipsius did however just send me one of his mouthpieces which I’m using now… but still having a hard time getting a real nice sound.
I’m at a loss… I have several videos on Youtube… but still no “sweet” sound.
Need help.
Tony Paccione
Brick, NJ.
April 3, 2016 @ 4:04 pm
I’m classically trained and use a folded lower lip .. because my lips are thin my sound is not comprised by any Muffling at all. My reputation has been built on having a huge sound .. I think it’s difficult to generalize when it comes to embouchure .. if you look at Rollins, dexter Gordon vs Trane, Getz or Desmond they all have very different approaches to embouchure . Is one better than the next ? The fact is every SINGLE well known sax player has an individual voice and embouchure is only one part of the sound. A person’s throat, diaphragm, lips, lungs , mouthpiece, reed, ligature , and style all add up to the overall sound .. that is why if you play another sax players horn you still sound like you! I say don’t get caught up in the method but play what comes naturally to you and work that into your individual sound . It’s like telling a golfer to completely change his swing after playing 20 years. It might work with some but not for all…
December 9, 2016 @ 1:03 pm
This is mind blowing!! I had no idea about playing with your lip out! I’ve been a musician for 11 years ( im 18) and have been paying tenor sax for 3 now. I’ve only ever known tucking in your bottom lip to play! I’m defiantly going to try this! This is amazing!!